and application, no sooner learns than he forgets; or again,did you mean, that the one has a body which is a good servantto his mind, while the body of the other is a...

And can you mention any pursuit of mankind in which the
male sex has not all these gifts and qualities in a higher degree
than the female? Need I waste time in speaking of the art
of weaving, and the management of pancakes and preserves,
in which womankind does really appear to be great, and in
which for her to be beaten by a man is of all things the most
absurd?
You are quite right, he replied, in maintaining the general
inferiority of the female sex: although many women are in
many things superior to many men, yet on the whole what you
say is true.
And if so, my friend, I said, there is no special faculty of
administration in a State which a woman has because she is a
woman, or which a man has by virtue of his sex, but the gifts
of nature are alike diffused in both; all the pursuits of men are
the pursuits of women also, but in all of them a woman is in-
ferior to a man.
Very true.
Then are we to impose all our enactments on men and none
of them on women?
That will never do.
One woman has a gift of healing, another not; one is a
musician, and another has no music in her nature?
Very true.
And one woman has a turn for gymnastic and military exer-
cises, and another is unwarlike and hates gymnastics?
Certainly.
And one woman is a philosopher, and another is an enemy
of philosophy; one has spirit, and another is without spirit?
That is also true.
Then one woman will have the temper of a guardian, and
another not. Was not the selection of the male guardians de-
termined by differences of this sort?
Yes.
Men and women alike possess the qualities which make a
guardian; they differ only in their comparative strength or
weakness.
Obviously.
And those women who have such qualities are to be selected
as the companions and colleagues of men who have similar
qualities and whom they resemble in capacity and in character?
Very true.
And ought not the same natures to have the same pursuits?
They ought.
Then, as we were saying before, there is nothing unnatural
in assigning music and gymnastics to the wives of the guar-
dians--to that point we come round again.
Certainly not.
The law which we then enacted was agreeable to nature,
and therefore not an impossibility or mere aspiration; and the
contrary practice, which prevails at present, is in reality a viola-
tion of nature.
That appears to be true.
We had to consider, first, whether our proposals were possi-
ble, and secondly whether they were the most beneficial?
Yes.
And the possibility has been acknowledged?
Yes.
The very great benefit has next to be established?
Quite so.
You will admit that the same education which makes a man
a good guardian will make a woman a good guardian; for their
original nature is the same?
Yes.
I should like to ask you a question.
What is it?
Would you say that all men are equal in excellence, or is one
man better than another?
The latter.
And in the commonwealth which we were founding do you
conceive the guardians who have been brought up on our
model system to be more perfect men, or the cobblers whose
education has been cobbling?
What a ridiculous question!
You have answered me, I replied: Well, and may we not
further say that our guardians are the best of our citizens?
By far the best.
And will not their wives be the best women?
Yes, by far the best.
And can there be anything better for the interests of the
State than that the men and women of a State should be as
good as possible?
There can be nothing better.
And this is what the arts of music and gymnastics, when
present in such a manner as we have described, will accom-
plish?
Certainly.
Then we have made an enactment not only possible but in
the highest degree beneficial to the State?
True.
Then let the wives of our guardians strip, for their virtue
will be their robe, and let them share in the toils of war and
the defence of their country; only in the distribution of labors
the lighter are to be assigned to the women, who are the weaker
natures, but in other respects their duties are to be the same.
And as for the man who laughs at naked women exercising
their bodies from the best of motives, in his laughter he is
plucking
"A fruit of unripe wisdom,"
and he himself is ignorant of what he is laughing at, or what
he is about; for that is, and ever will be, the best of sayings,
"that the useful is the noble, and the hurtful is the base."
Very true.
Here, then, is one difficulty in our law about women, which
we may say that we have now escaped; the wave has not swal-
lowed us up alive for enacting that the guardians of either sex
should have all their pursuits in common; to the utility and
also to the possibility of this arrangement the consistency of the
argument with itself bears witness.
Yes, that was a mighty wave which you have escaped.
Yes, I said, but a greater is coming; you will not think much
of this when you see the next.
Go on; let me see.
The law, I said, which is the sequel of this and of all that
has preceded, is to the following effect, "that the wives of our
guardians are to be common, and their children are to be com-
mon, and no parent is to know his own child, nor any child his
parent."
Yes, he said, that is a much greater wave than the other;
and the possibility as well as the utility of such a law are far
more questionable.
I do not think, I said, that there can be any dispute about
the very great utility of having wives and children in common;
the possibility is quite another matter, and will be very much
disputed.
I think that a good many doubts may be raised about both.
You imply that the two questions must be combined, I re-
plied. Now I meant that you should admit the utility; and
in this way, as I thought, I should escape from one of them,
and then there would remain only the possibility.
But that little attempt is detected, and therefore you will
please to give a defence of both.
Well, I said, I submit to my fate. Yet grant me a little
favor: let me feast my mind with the dream as day-dreamers
are in the habit of feasting themselves when they are walking
alone; for before they have discovered any means of effecting
their wishes--that is a matter which never troubles them--they
would rather not tire themselves by thinking about possibilities;
but assuming that what they desire is already granted to them,